Last week we published the first
part of the media roundtable with the new US Ambassador, Mr. James Entwistle,
in this concluding exerpt, the envoy clarifies his country’s position on
Nigeria’s same sex Prohibition Act. READ MORE STORIES AFTER THE CUT...
There is the military aspect; there
is the economic system aspect; there is helping the civilian population; there
is the aspect about having a policy of transparency in the detention of Boko
Haram suspects. All of these things fit together into a successful
counter-terrorism campaign and policy. I was very pleased the other week in
Abuja when we heard a session where some of our counter-terrorism experts came
in and this was done not in the spirit of arrogance but in the spirit of
humility: ‘look we have had counter insurgency and terrorism challenges…’ Our
experts came and sat with your experts sat and shared ideas and see if they
will be helpful here. That is the kind of things we should be doing as partners
and exactly the kind of things I will work to continue while the ambassador
here.
What has happened to the reward for
justice on Shekau?
The reward for justice is a useful
tool we use to fight terror around the world sometimes. I’m not aware Shekau is
dead. It is very difficult to track him and figure out where he is, but, to my
knowledge, he is still alive. Again, it is very difficult to know. The
challenge of fighting terror is that you don’t lose your own soul when it comes
to human rights and you must maintain the rule of law. .
Maintaining rule of law
When you apprehend Boko Haram
suspects, you should take them into detention and treat them fairly and find
out: Were they in fact members of Boko Haram? Or just some guy who happened to
walk down the street at the wrong time? Carefully sort them out and even when
you have gotten the people you know are the bad guys, there is no need to brutalise
them. It is much better to treat them fairly and walk them through the judicial
system.
Yes, it is hard, but do it that
way…Part of the challenge of counter-terrorism is that you are fighting an
enemy who mixes with the population and I am a civilian; I am not a military
guy, but I have to imagine that is one of the most difficult things for the
military guys, to go into a mixed setting like that, figure out who is a
terrorist and who are the innocent civilians. Carefully separating them is not
easy. These are enormously difficult thing to do and that is why we are trying
to help your government do better on this front as a friend, as a partner.
How much international collaboration
do we need to win the war on terror?
Whether it is fighting terror or the
war on drugs or any of these international problems that cut across borders, no
one nation can do it by itself. To really get at Boko Haram, your government
needs to continue working with Cameroun and Chad because these guys cross the
borders. These are guys for whom international borders are largely meaningless.
The only way to deal with these guys is to collaborate with your neigbours and
relevant international organisations.
I think in my conversation with your
government and military, I think there is a growing concern over finding an
enemy who mixes with the civilian population.
Civilian population
So, that needs to be a focus. I
think one needs to look at why did it start in the first place? What drew
people to this organisation in the first place? Was it lack of employment
opportunity? Was it education system? I am not sure what the reasons might be.
Sometimes it is hard to do but we need to ask why is it happening in our
country and what can we do better in our country to make sure that this type of
thing does not happen again. But we know that it is hard to look at yourself
like that, but sometimes in life you have to.
How has the US prepared for the
feared break up of Nigeria?
If this country is going to break up
in 2015, to me, I don’t see any sign of it. You have challenges in this
country, but you are moving forward towards a bright future. There is no issue
that the country might break up. Yes, your country had a devastating civil war
just like my own country. It almost tore us into two. I think both of our
countries have learnt how difficult it is to hold a country together and that
has certainly been a big factor in my country. The idea that Nigeria is going
to fall apart in the coming months, I am not sure where that idea is coming
from.
What is your view on the issue of
Oil theft in Nigeria and the allegation that the proceeds from this crime finds
its way into the U.S.?
It is difficult to prove that
(stolen crude oil find their way to the U.S.) because the international
financial market is so amorphous. When you take oil and it goes out of the
country, exactly where it ends up is very difficult to determine. But what is
clear is that there is the issue of oil theft in this country…Reading about the
Niger Delta before I came into this country, I had this idea that oil bunkering
was a very clandestine, surreptitious activity…, but flying over the Delta in a
helicopter and you can see huge (illegal) bunkering operations. Everyone knows
where it is; everyone knows who is in it. It was quite an eye opener for me
about how in the open it is.
Radar stations
Yesterday (Wednesday), I spent
the afternoon with your navy, looking at some trainings we are doing
together and one of the observations we had was that your navy is quite
capable. They have what they need. We have provided some over the years. They
are well-trained. In addition, there are some stations onshore, radar stations
and other sort of things that can help tell who is on the water.
I think physically in terms of
having the tools that you need to prevent physical act, you are in pretty good
shape. But of course, the other issue is after a barrel of oil is pumped,
where does the money go? That is a much more complicated equation. What we have
said to your government is that we see this as a Nigerian problem, but one that
has a very clear international element. If your investigation uncovers a money
trail that it may head towards the United States, then please share that
information with us and we will be delighted to have our law enforcement officers
look into that.
But most times the stolen finds
stashed abroad
If there is a clear evidence that
stolen money finds its way into the United States, we want to know about it.
Obviously, I cannot go into specific visa cases, but corruption is a factor and
sometimes some Nigerians did not receive U.S. visa or had their U.S. visas
revoked because of their involvement in corrupt activities. I cannot go
into details.
We have very strict privacy laws…
Corruption begins to end, especially when the average guy who does the right
thing; pay his tax and goes to work every day begin to say: ‘Wait a minute. I
want to know what you are doing with the taxes we are paying’. That is what
begins to make a difference. First it is up to your law enforcement agencies and
when they see it they should point it in our direction so that we can
investigate. Second, citizens like you should ask where all the money is going
into. That kind of civil society effort. I think it is also about using
effective watchdog, like your EFCC. Also, you have to do quite a lot in the
public arena.
Same-sex prohibition law
We have tremendous respect for the
sovereignty of other nations. Now, on the same-sex marriage bill, let me be
very clear: same-sex marriage is a controversial issue all over the
world, including in my country. I think it is now legal in 17 or 18
states; that means it is not legal in two-third of the country. May be someday
a federal court will make it the law of the land, but for now it is not. So, we
understand that same-sex marriage is a very controversial issue. Quite frankly,
the issue of what defines a marriage in Nigeria should be left to the
Nigerian people. I think even before this bill was passed the Marriage
Act specified that a marriage is between a man and a woman.
That is a Nigerian issue, but as a
friend of Nigeria, what worries us about this law is that, (I am not a lawyer)
but when I read this law it looks to me that it puts restriction on freedom of
assembly and the freedom of expression, which, I think, U.S. journalists will
be particularly concerned about. I understand the issue of homosexuality is a
hot topic here, but if you can no longer talk about it, if you can even meet to
talk about it, it means to me it is a slippery slope. What is the next topic you
will no longer be able to talk about or meet about?
I think in a hard-won democracy like
yours, when you start limiting the freedoms, it is a very worrisome thing. Take
the bill, take out the word gay, put in the word ‘journalist’, how do you feel
about that? The other point I will make, we are very concerned as a huge
HIV/AIDS partner. Since the inception of our PEPFAR programme, I think we have
spent about three and a half billion dollars in this country on the struggle
against HIV/AIDS.
We and many partners were concerned
that…it might affect people coming for HIV/AIDS treatment and that kind of
thing. I was very pleased the other day that NACA, I think the director came
out to clarify that nothing in this bill should be misconstrued to mean people
should not seek healthcare.
So, I was very glad to see that. I
was very concerned. Finally, the other thing that concerns me is that sadly
there have been incidences around this country where the bill has been used to
justify violence against gays, breaking into their homes, things like these and
I have to think that all well-meaning Nigerians, regardless of what you think
of homosexual conduct, you have to condemn this kind of thing, that kind
of violence against any Nigerian.
Increasing length of visa time
Visas are huge issues here. The
demand for visa has gone up by 45 per cent this year. But what I can guarantee
the people is that whether they get the visa or not, they will be treated with
courtesy and respect. On the issue of length of visas, those things are done on
the basis of reciprocity. We extend to Nigeria what Nigerian government would
extend to American citizens. Right now, it is two years multiple entry, If your
government is willing to start discussion on increasing it, we will
welcome it.
